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The elephant in the room
The Jasmine Flower
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2005/1/3 18:45
From usa
Posts: 12442
I would just like to point out to those of you outside the U.S. that Clinton got more votes and won the popular vote - I've seen estimates that she may win it by 1 or 2 percent when all the absentee ballots are counted in California. This was not the will of the American people - we chose Clinton - and that the Republican party worked to suppress voted of minorities with targeted new laws and other measures. This is an undemocratic assumption of power.

I'm sorry we didn't do more to stop this. We all thought it would never happen. By all rights the vote should not even have been close and it's inexcusable.

We are all terrified and crushed with despair here - that applies to pretty much every single person I know in this country. The streets are silent. Urban voices have been silenced, the rule of one person one vote made a mockery of. This is not what we wanted. This is not what most Americans wanted.

Posted on: 2016/11/13 2:40
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Re: The elephant in the room
Siren
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Not the outcome wanted, but now we must come together and support the president elect. Hopes and prayers that he will be a good leader and have success.

Posted on: 2016/11/13 2:51
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Re: The elephant in the room
The Jasmine Flower
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Posts: 12442
I will not support a racist, misogynistic, xenophobic white supremacist. Sorry. That's wrong no matter who it is. None of this is a matter of opinion - it's fact.

What needs to happen is that he needs to resign. There will be no coming together. This is a matter of right and wrong. Nazis should never be supported. He ran as an open racist and misogynist who asked other countries to hack into U.S. intelligence. His supporters are amoral traitors.

He also got fewer votes than his opponent. He is not a democratically elected leader. He does not have the support of the people. He does not have the consent of the governed. The American people chose Clinton. This is not an opinion - this is a matter of public record. He needs to resign immediately. Nothing else is acceptable.


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Posted on: 2016/11/13 5:30
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Re: The elephant in the room
The Jasmine Flower
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I feel for you. Seems to be the same drama as Bush vs. Gore in 2000, when Gore won the popular vote, but Bush got president and made so many things wrong.

I can tell you almost all people I spoke to or heard from in the last four days in Germany are shocked as well.

I'm not so much into US politics as you are, of course, but I'm with Cassander here. You cannot support such a person.

Posted on: 2016/11/13 14:30
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Re: The elephant in the room
The Jasmine Flower
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And don't forget Trump himself didn't accept Obama's election in 2008 for many years with not believing Obama being born in US.

And he said he will only accept this year's election if he wins.

Posted on: 2016/11/13 16:47
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Re: The elephant in the room
HNN Forums Admin
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The majority of people who were allowed to vote did not vote. Just wonder if they give up on life and do not care who the president will be. Well the choices given were not perfect anyway, maybe one reason.
I think I had voted for Bernie Sanders, but he didn't made it.

Posted on: 2016/11/13 22:42
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Re: The elephant in the room
The Jasmine Flower
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Quote:

gerd wrote:
The majority of people who were allowed to vote did not vote. Just wonder if they give up on life and do not care who the president will be.

As far as I understand it, the problem is the voter registration. Some laws were changed in the last years by the Republicans to make it easier for whites and more difficult for blacks to register, for example. Cassander mentioned it in his first posting. He surely knows more details than I do. But I have heard for it, yes.

Posted on: 2016/11/13 22:58
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Re: The elephant in the room
The Jasmine Flower
Joined:
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From usa
Posts: 12442
A few points:

Clinton already has a larger margin than Gore did in 2000 and her vote total is expected to grow as more votes are counted in California. So this clearly stated a preference being overturned may be unprecedented.

George W. Bush, in 2000, was a mainstream politician running as a "compassionate conservative". At that time he did not propose doing illegal things like torturing people. He even said he was not for nation building (heh).

The GOP nominee this year, on the other hand, has promised to torture people as brutally as ISIS. He has promised targeted killings of civilians due only to being family members of suspected terrorists. He has promised to spy on, ban, and in other ways treat unfairly a religious minority (Muslims) and those of an ethic minority (Latinos). All of this is illegal, unconstitutional, and morally reprehensible.

He has the enthusiastic endorsement of the KKK and other neo-Nazi and white supremacist groups. Even the leader of the GOP, Speaker of the House Paul Ryan, has called his statements "the textbook definition of racism."

He lost. He needs to concede. The electoral college needs to ratify the choice of the people of the United States, Hillary Clinton, as the 45th President. Any other action is undemocratic.

https://www.change.org/p/electoral-col ... -president-on-december-19

Posted on: 2016/11/14 0:58
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Re: The elephant in the room
Siren
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Sorry Cass, if you think Trump would ever concede and resign, you have not been paying attention. He is a narcissistic egomaniac. Amongst other things...

Fortunately, there are many checks and balances on the president. First of there is congress. The democrats and the republicans are repulsed by the...(can I call him this?)..man. They will come together against Trump.

Also, the commanders of the armed forces are not bound to the president. If he wants to use nukes or military force, they can on moral issues, decline. They've already said as much.

Lastly, and this is what could well happen, there is impeachment.

This should raise more awareness on the electoral college and how it works, or as in this case, how it doesn't work.


We are stuck with this embarrassment for four years or until impeachment.

As Obama asked, and as Hilary has asked, I will support the president. I will hope for the best, but expect the worst.

Posted on: 2016/11/14 1:19
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Re: The elephant in the room
The Jasmine Flower
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2005/1/3 18:45
From usa
Posts: 12442
I don't give a shit what he would like to do. He doesn't get any choice in the matter. The American people have spoken and we will not have some Hitler-wanna be as President. Period.

We will make him resign. All 61 million of us will go on general strike and grind the global economy to a halt if we have to. We have the power. He is illegitimate. He is an authoritarian racist and must go. This is a democracy not a dictatorship.

Posted on: 2016/11/14 4:38
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Re: The elephant in the room
Wonderlust
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2008/1/17 13:25
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Quote:

Feral wrote:
.... He is a narcissistic egomaniac. Amongst other things...

Well said! Alanis Morissette must have written the song "Narcissus" for him in advance...

Amongst all other things, above all Iíll never understand how as a woman you could vote for such a disgusting misogynist.
I'm not someone who would vote for a woman only because she's a woman. But with the choice between Clinton and Trump it should be more than clear whom to support if you're sane.

I sometimes have the feeling in a lot of matters (women rights, environmental issues, etc...) we make steps backwards. But perhaps it's the perpetual pendulum.

As in Germany, in Austria only a few percent would have voted for Trump (pretty sure right-wing-party voters...). I hope the U.S. presidential elections were a kind of wake-up call for the Austrians regarding our vote on the 4th of December. If it doesn't get postponed again...

Early this year when I had the feeling the world was getting more and more nuts I already said I wouldn't wonder if Trump got president if it was going to continue that way. But I never really thought it would happen.
Lately somehow I'm prepared for everything going to occur on this planet now. It's hard to have faith that everything changes for the good....

Posted on: 2016/11/14 10:13
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Re: The elephant in the room
The Jasmine Flower
Joined:
2005/1/3 18:45
From usa
Posts: 12442
Current totals:

Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine
61,039,676 votes (48%)

GOP nominees
60,371,193 votes (47%)

She is now ahead by close to 700,000 votes. Still more votes to be counted.

Posted on: 2016/11/14 16:44
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Re: The elephant in the room
HNN Forums Admin
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Posts: 20567
About the name of this thread, I think an elephant has much more sense, considering what Donald said so far.

Maybe Antoinette Van De Water can help. She is known for the project Bring The Elephant Home!

Sorry for making a joke. Antoinette only takes care for those who deserve, real elephants who deserve.

Posted on: 2016/11/14 22:57
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Re: The elephant in the room
The Jasmine Flower
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Posts: 12442
Real elephants are important and at severe and growing risk, unfortunately.

"The elephant in the room" is an English saying, however - I have no idea how international it is but it means something obvious that everyone notices but isn't talking about. I also used it as a pun cause the symbol of the GOP (Republican party) is an elephant. We often talk about massive world events here and since there wasn't a thread, that's why I gave it that title.

I also refuse (or try not to) use his name which is basically fake and just his brand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_in_the_room

Posted on: 2016/11/15 15:50
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Cass - they/them
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Re: The elephant in the room
HNN Forums Admin
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just for information, in Germany there is a phrase:

elephant in a glass room

not sure if this translation is correct for the meaning in english. I guess it is the same meaning as the topic of this thread.

Posted on: 2016/11/16 0:05
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Re: The elephant in the room
The Jasmine Flower
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2005/1/2 0:28
Posts: 26483
Quote:

gerd wrote:
just for information, in Germany there is a phrase:

elephant in a glass room

not sure if this translation is correct for the meaning in english. I guess it is the same meaning as the topic.

No, that's something totally different.

If you say there is an elephant in the room, you mean that there is an obvious problem or difficult situation that people do not want to talk about.
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/de/wo ... h/an-elephant-in-the-room

The German phrase "sich wie ein Elefant im Porzellanladen benehmen" is the same as the English phrase "to behave like a bull in a china shop", and this means:

If someone is like a bull in a china shop, they are very careless in the way that they move or behave.
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/de/wo ... ke-a-bull-in-a-china-shop

But of course, Trump is indeed "very careless in the way that he moves or behaves", so both sayings are true concerning him...

Elephant = Republican Party.

Posted on: 2016/11/16 0:29
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Re: The elephant in the room
The Jasmine Flower
Joined:
2005/1/3 18:45
From usa
Posts: 12442
Current totals:

President-elect Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine
62,013,985 (48%)

GOP Nominees
60,959,503 (47%)

So Clinton leads by over one-million votes now.

We must continue to protest, continue to reject the losers of this election. The GOP lost. Clinton won. The will of the people is clear as day and they need to concede. The United States is being occupied undemocratically by incoming authoritarian rulers. This is not our government. We are being oppressed.

Posted on: 2016/11/18 16:57
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Re: The elephant in the room
Milky Way
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2008/5/2 3:15
Posts: 404
Quote:

Bernd wrote:
Quote:

gerd wrote:
The majority of people who were allowed to vote did not vote. Just wonder if they give up on life and do not care who the president will be.

As far as I understand it, the problem is the voter registration. Some laws were changed in the last years by the Republicans to make it easier for whites and more difficult for blacks to register, for example. Cassander mentioned it in his first posting. He surely knows more details than I do. But I have heard for it, yes.


Bernd -

That's part of it.

The Republican Party has basically done a multi-pronged strategy to retain power over the past 15 or so years.

The main parts have been:

1) "Gerrymandering" the voting districts to favor a certain Party - In the U.S., voting district maps are usually redrawn after each 10-year census. The Republicans have controlled things during the past 2 or 3 census periods and have been able to redraw districts each time to further favor their Party. A great example of how this is done is here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wo ... dering-you-will-ever-see/

The results are extremely crazy-looking districts that zig and zag and get thinner and then thicker to try to compress Democratic voters into fewer districts and majority Republican voters in more districts.

This has been extremely successful. For instance, in 2012 Democrats won 50.6% of votes but only got 46.2% of seats in the House (a 4.5% loss of majority owed to gerrymandering). This article also explains how it has evolved under the modern Republican Party:

http://ncec.org/articles/20160608-gerrymandering-widens-gap

2) Voter Suppression - conservatives have been doing this for over a century. In the South until the 1960s it was extremely prevalent under the "Jim Crow" laws where African Americans were prevented from voting using all types of different laws. And during the Civil Rights era when activists attempted to try to register more African Americans in the South, some of them were lynched and murdered in retaliation.

In modern times, the mainly Republican state legislatures simply try to make voting as hard as possible for targeted demographics who are more likely to vote for Democrats. And they try to do so by going as close to the line of blatant discrimination as possible. Some of the more common tactics have been to require more strict forms of identification such as only drivers licenses - when poor people may be less likely to drive or have such identification. There have been stories of elderly people who have voted for decades and been turned away from being allowed to vote due to stricter ID requirements. The typical cover story for these stricter laws is a claim that it's intended to reduce voter fraud.

Somehow, the U.S. was able to exist for 200 years with people voting year after year before modern identification and computers came around. Certainly, there has always been some fraud. But on the scale they're claiming it's simply not likely. And actual audits going back years have failed to ever show the largescale fraud these laws are claiming to be needed to prevent.

They also tinker with voting locations. They reduce the number of voting locations in areas with high percentages of voters likely to vote Democrat - so there ends up being long lines that make many voters give up before they can vote.

A few states try to make it *easier* to vote rather than very, very hard. They allow voting by mail with convenient drop-off boxes for ballots and other innovations. All of these states are typically controlled by Democrats.

Posted on: 2016/11/21 2:39
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Re: The elephant in the room
The Jasmine Flower
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Posts: 26483
Yes, I know of gerrymandering, but that's not a problem in the presidential election - as this election is based on states and stats borders are not being changed. Execption maybe ME and NE, I don't know. But surely a problem in other elections, like you said in the house elections.

And voter suppression, yes, that's the thing I wanted to explain to Gerd. Maybe I mixed up registration and voting, but in the end, it's the same, some people aren't allowed to vote.

Posted on: 2016/11/21 9:28
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Re: The elephant in the room
The Jasmine Flower
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https://www.facebook.com/HeatherNovaOf ... l/posts/10155029647769791

Heather liking the Women's March last Saturday.

Posted on: 2017/1/25 8:15
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