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Rammstein.
Storm
Joined:
2005/10/14 13:03
From Konstanz, Germany
Posts: 5435
Well, now I will have to live with the fact that my name is always next to the topic of "Rammstein"...

Nevertheless the former discussion was in the wrong topic, so it was necessary to open a new one in the appropriate place.

Here an analysis by the German magazine "Spiegel" in English language:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,662082,00.html

It is funny that the article in wikipedia is so much putting emphasis on Oskar Lafontaine's autobiography to prove that Rammstein are left-wing just because of its title (a title used before by others, it's more of an idiom anyway)- and again they are not. Definitely not. Oskar Lafontaine was famous for using xenophobic right-wing vocabulary in his speeches...

Johan is probably right, they just like to provoke as does Marylin Manson - that's also how this article is arguing. That would mean that they are more or less...cynical in my opinion.

Posted on: 2011/3/21 13:01
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Re: Rammstein.
The Jasmine Flower
Joined:
2005/1/3 18:45
From usa
Posts: 12550
Honestly, that article doesn't come across too well for me. Feels like the author just doesn't like the band and wasn't very persuasive about why we shouldn't like them. I mean, the Columbine thing seems petty... I thought we were past blaming Columbine on music and video games that millions of people who don't go on shooting rampages play. I believe there have even been studies linking playing violent video games with a lack of violent behavior, but I am not 100% certain if my memory is correct there.

I don't know. I obviously will never fully understand the cultural context here. It seems Raamstein plays with very sensitive images which might be hurtful for a lot of people. And it sounds like maybe they just use controversy to make money, kinda like Marilyn Manson. But I haven't seen any evidence to point to them having fascist sympathies or engaging in any pro-fascist statements. Songs like Ich Will, where the singer takes on a dark persona, don't seem that poisonous to me.

Of course, it's really hard for me to judge stuff like their album covers referencing Nazi propaganda, as I don't have as much experience or exposure to that sort of thing. Nor am I familiar with most of their songs, just a couple of the more famous ones. So it's quite possible I am just unfamiliar with their really bad stuff.

Posted on: 2011/3/22 16:16
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Re: Rammstein.
Storm
Joined:
2005/10/14 13:03
From Konstanz, Germany
Posts: 5435
Yeah, well there will probably be always a debate about this band at least here in Germany - but in the end that's already to much honour one gives to them.
Just to say it in a nuthshell: no one ever here will invite them to a "Youth against Fascism" festival...

Posted on: 2011/3/24 12:17
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Re: Rammstein.
The Jasmine Flower
Joined:
2005/1/3 18:45
From usa
Posts: 12550
Just out of curiousity, if you don't mind talking more about a band you very much dislike, how do you interpret the song Ich Will? What do you think it's about? What message, if any, do you think it was intended to convey?

I'd just like to understand the anti-Rammstein sentiment a bit better. I understand how their imagery can be controversial, but I'm curious about their music.

Posted on: 2011/3/24 16:01
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Re: Rammstein.
The Jasmine Flower
Joined:
2005/1/2 0:28
Posts: 26938
Here is a long article about Rammstein:
http://raumfahrer.wordpress.com/rammstein/

And an interpretation of the video and the lyrics of "Ich will":
http://raumfahrer.wordpress.com/rammstein/ich-will/

Both in English language!

The interpreter says the video is in his opinion a tribute to Horst Wessel, a Nazi Saint, and the lyrics are a tribute to Joseph Goebbels, the Nazi propaganda minister, in his "Total war" speech.

I want to add that "I wanna see your hands" could mean here "show us the Nazi salute", with the straightened right arm.

Well, the interpreter is right or wrong. But it shows that Rammstein is a highly controversial band, and you can expect lots of negative reactions when quoting them. I'm sure Heather didn't know that. I would advise her not to quote them again.

Posted on: 2011/3/24 16:42
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Re: Rammstein.
Storm
Joined:
2005/10/14 13:03
From Konstanz, Germany
Posts: 5435
Yeah, well it's not that I hate Rammstein or so, I just had the impression that obviously there is a misunderstanding, especially since they are - for what reasons ever - one of the very, very few German bands - and even with German lyrics - that have international success.

I have to take some time to get through the lyrics of "Ich will" and the articles Bernd posted.

And I agree with Bend - again - that Heather proibably didn't know about Rammstein's controiversial background and she wouldn't have quoted them, I guess, if she knew.

Posted on: 2011/3/25 12:23
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Re: Rammstein.
Storm
Joined:
2005/10/14 13:03
From Konstanz, Germany
Posts: 5435
I had not the time yet to spend much time with the lyrics, but I read the articles above already - and I do not find them very convincing, I must admit. It seems the author had the intention to find anything that supports his view, but many of his "proves" seem very far-fetched to me. Not all, but most of them. That's not very helpful... I do not know about the video, so I'm talking only about the lyrics itself.
My first impression was the same as Bernd's, that the lines about the hands might refer to the Nazi salute.

But more to come...

Posted on: 2011/4/3 12:11
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Re: Rammstein.
The Jasmine Flower
Joined:
2005/1/3 18:45
From usa
Posts: 12550
I can understand that Ich Will has references to Nazi leaders and that it's speaker is supposed to be a fascist ruler or some other leader who controls masses of people.

But I guess what I don't see is how the song glorifies this. Isn't it more a warning or a condemnation? If the song were spreading a positive message about such things, wouldn't the lyrics contain positive propaganda that would seek to make the Nazi or fascist message seem appealing? Stuff about protecting the homeland or the master race or whatever else was used back then to persuade people to that movement.

Instead, the song focuses entirely on the control the speaker exerts over the audience. Isn't the song casting the speaker in a negative light, not a positive one? Isn't it a criticism of the Nazi movement and its leaders as well as other people who use similar persuarive tactics?

As I've said before, I may well be missing a lot of the cultural context here, so if I am overlooking or misunderstanding something, I would like to know it. I don't want to support or tolerate a song or a band that is based in hate or other vileness. I just haven't yet seen how this is so.

Posted on: 2011/4/4 21:01
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